May 022015
 

This site has TWO useful areas. A forum (for discussion, opinions and chit-chat) and the main site (contacting or starting a group). You are currently on the main site.

THE MAIN SITE

is for posting contacts. This is where you are now. If you want to start or join a group, create a post here. In order to do that, you will need an account: you can register here.
More information: What’s proper to post, what’s not || Getting Started || FAQs and How to write a good contact post || Are you press/media?

THE FORUM

is for posting opinions, reviews, news articles, buying & selling and questions. You can access it here. The forum requires a separate, additional registration from the main site. You can register for the forum here.
More information: Be sure to check in || Having a get-together? || List your blog or site

Oct 212014
 

Ever since I stopped sending out preppergroups.com newsletters, people have been asking me why I don’t send out newsletters. :)

Last time I ran all the software from the site and getting things configured and working well was a constant headache (I blame the software!). This time I’m going to let mailchimp do all the work.

You’ll notice that there’s now a subscribe option on the right hand side of the page. Fill that in and when we have enough members subscribed, I’ll start sending out newsletters again. (yes, there’s an unsubscribe option)

Jul 042015
 

Our team is coming along nicely. It looks like we are going to be preparing. the site to produce all our own food. We are still praying for one or two more families to join us in our effort to build a fully self sustaining, off grid, facility.  If God is calling you to join us contact me at:

truefaith (at) jesusanwers.com.

Jul 032015
 

Have been getting ready for a few years, seems like no end. looking for a few people that might be interested in relocating to be part of a small group, would like to have female and male participants, have room for 3 -5 people who can bring skills. I am a vet. and also can and know how to do most type of construction, planting, fishing, shooting,cooking,camping. Skills needed are medical, security, comms, water, solar. should have a good supply of personal needs such as food, guns, ammo, and trade needs, as i have a good start myself. contact r c hughes 4 6 at g mail dotcom

Jul 032015
 

Are there any groups in MI that are starting up or are looking for dedicated members? My wife and I have been preparing ourselves for a few years now, and I really would like to meet some others as there is strength in numbers

Jul 022015
 

To our friends in the Prepper Community,

The Arizona Rifles Tactical Survivalists (ARTS) are recruiting for new quality members to join our team. We are located in the Phoenix metropolitan area. Our goal is to remove our families to a safe location in the case of any natural disaster, in the event of financial collapse, man-made disaster or act of terrorism. Our mission does not involve bugging in or the purchase of land. We are a mobile unit. We are looking for dedicated members to join our group and do not discriminate based upon race, gender, faith, or sexual orientation. We are NOT a political or religious group or a militia. ARTS adheres to all federal and state laws and abides by the Constitution. Do you have a disaster plan? Are you prepared for a total breakdown of society? Arizona Rifles Tactical Survivalists train one weekend a month and meet one night per month. The focus of training is on preparedness as well as tactical training. Committed training allows for cohesion between group members. There are no fees to be a member. The only cost involved is the purchase of equipment and materials necessary for your family to survive off the grid.

Please visit our website at https://azrifles.com/ for further information and to apply. You may also call 480-209-6602 or 480-313-7402.

We look forward to hearing from you.

Most Respectfully,

Arizona Rifles Tactical Survivalists

Jul 022015
 

A little bit about what were about.

The III% of TN is a group of like minded people that works together to prepare for when SHTF. We learn, teach and grow from one another. We meet about once a month and classes/training are free. They are taught by our zone members willing to share their skills and knowledge with the group. We could train and have trained on things such as food prep, water storage, first aid, general survival skills, gun safety, health and wellness, tacticaldefense and more.
Who we are: Well most of us are just your neighbors who can see the writing on the wall. We know we can’t do it all and know it all, but are willing to help each other.
We believe we need to be ready for whatever may come and prepare to defend when the time comes. We are a relatively family oriented group, although some things won’t be age appropriate for kids.
We’re a preparedness, survival, defensive and tactical group of civilians, military vets, oath keepers, and just generally patriotic folks.
We do not allow felons, racism, sexism, nor communism, socialism, or any other negative “ism.”
Trainings are free as they are taught by zone members willing to share their skills and knowledge. We ask that only those willing to be active join. If you wish to just post and not be involved in creating bonds with other like-minded patriots, then this may not be a fit for those types of people.
We are not a militia. We are not a radical group. Just regular folks who want what’s best for our families and country.
Are you willing to be an active member in the zone where you live and attend and participate to help in times of need?
Click on the link below. Like the page and message that you would like to become a member.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Three-Percenters-of-Tennessee/1485902548310041
Look forward to hearing from you…..!

Jul 012015
 

If you are survivalist/prepper minded, a medical surgeon, and concerned about your immediate family’s security during certain possible events then read on. I am a married male with a very secluded BOL.  I am willing to share my skills, knowledge, and expertise pertaining to survival and prepping. I’m pretty well prepped but looking for a few replacements to join my group. You must have no felony convictions, no drug, alcohol or mental problems. You also should have certain skills that will be of benefit to my group. To be precise I would prefer a Medical Surgeon . Must believe in GOD, must be trustworthy, must be loyal to the constitution of the USA. No liberals, socialist or progressives need apply. Married couples are preferred but not required.The BOL is located in Central Florida. Anyone interested that lives in the western portion of region 2 or 3 is a plus. Do not pass up this opportunity and contact me only if your serious about joining a group in west central Florida. THANKS. Patriot Pilgrim

Jun 292015
 

I have only been prepping for 6 months and looking for other people in the San Antonio area that we can swap ideas and possible to try out skills. I am a Navy Vet and prepping for economical collapse. I am  also prepping for my wife. Feel free to email me anytime, aoan [dot] shu [at] gmail [dot] com

Jun 282015
 

Hi! I just moved to South Bend this week. I will only be here for a year as I am attending graduate school at ND. I’ve been seeing all the internet rumors about SHTF this september or so. A lot of it seems kind of far out, however I do believe the economy will crash soon or there will be some big war as my spidey senses have been tingling. Idk but it is definitely a good idea to be prepared for whatever calamities lie ahead. Problem is, I’m a college student living in on campus. Can any seasoned preppers give me some tips?

Jun 282015
 

Looking for a group or willing to start one if needed.

 

The type of group I am looking for or willing to create would have the following qualities;

1. High standard of ethics and morals.

2. Non racial (human centric) in attitude.

3. Flexible (open minded comfortable with change).

4. Organized (I know this is a taken, just had to say it).

 

Thank you

benshelmars

powerofspeech [at] gmx [dot] us

 

“Sooner or later comes a crisis in our affairs, and how we meet it determines our future happiness and success. Since the beginning of time, every form of life has been called upon to meet such crisis.”

Robert Collier

Jun 282015
 

I don’t necessarily have a group, but would like to expand beyond the 2 couples(including me and my mrs) we have now. I have some skill in most everything, but what I have the most is ideas, and noone to share them with! Even if I don’t end up adding anyone to my “group”, I would love to make new friends of the same ilk as me to share ideas. And who knows, maybe we’ll join forces. Treasure Coast of Florida and surrounding area(s) are most welcome, but anyone who wishes to shoot the s**t, by all means, respond.

Jun 262015
 

I’m in Central Florida, I have property-outhouse-water source.

I want to get with others and do some Training and Prep-Talk and Sharing.

I’m bordering Polk-Highlands Counties.

I have a large 2.5 acre lot I’m getting ready for when SHTF.

I’m 51-single Grandfather raising 2 Grandkids.

All persons are Welcome.

Contact me here or at RCELSR [at] gmail [dot] com

 Posted by at 10:04 am
Jun 252015
 

Hello I am single christian mom I live in South Florida with my teenager daughter. God has put upon my heart, the urgency to be prepared. I am bilingual and there is none of these prepper groups in the hispanic community. Please contact me at escorza14 [at] hotmail [dot] com. Blessings

Hola soy madre soltera cristiana. Yo vivo en el sur de Florida con mi hija adolescente. Dios ha puesto en mi corazón, la urgencia de prepararnos. Soy bilingüe y no hay ninguno de estos grupos “prepper” en la comunidad hispana. Pueden contactarme a mi correo electronico escorza14 [at] hotmail [dot] com . Bendiciones!

 Posted by at 10:17 am
Jun 252015
 

hello im new here. i have been a survivalist all my life. i spent most of my 20s camping/hiking in the Adirondack mountains. Im 32 ranch manager-horse trainer. i’m renting a house with my pregnant GF on 360+ achers of farm and woodlands. i would like to find other preppers and compare notes and practicing bugging out. maybe start up a group for when SHTF. im kinda new to working with others but with my new family i need to get use to it.

Jun 232015
 

Established and running MAG/Prepper group is seeking new members. Our current 5 members reside in York, Chester, Lancaster counties in South Carolina, and Mecklenburg county in North Carolina. The group ranges between 27- retirement age. We are varied in back ground from retired military/security to first responders and manufacturing. Variety is the spice of life.

Qualifications to be included within the group are as follows:

1) Must possess a current Concealed Weapons Permit OR carry credentials that required check. For instance any LEO, Fire, Medical, or Military personnel etc…

2) We are a non-racist, non-sexist, non-biased group. You must be too.

3) Must be willing to make it to as many scheduled meetings as possible. We currently have 2 per month but may be more depending. We discuss current events, training, hobbies, hang out, and preparedness at these meetings. They are very informal.

4) Would prefer people already established or trying to become established as preppers/homesteaders but willing to take on newbies as well as long as you are seriously interested and consider this NOT to be a fad.

5) CANNOT be of the tin hat super paranoid variety. We are friends that have met through prepping and want more prepping friends to join us.

6) NO druggies, drunks, or people with Felony charges. Period. Past lives are past. Refer to first qualification…

7) We are all family oriented people. You should be ok with that as many times our spouses, families, and children are there with us.

8) We expect to be able to trust you with our lives. We trust each other. When SHTF we expect everyone to have each other’s 6’s.

9) Be willing to train and learn as well as teach. We are all growing and learning on this path. We welcome new ideas.

10) Have a driver’s license. As we would be more than willing to help anyone out, we won’t pick you up and deliver you to every meeting or to your sister’s house on Thanksgiving… Unless our families are invited too.

That’s it. We are all friendly and practical people as well as dependable which you will see. We ask that you have respect for others and keep an open mind. Once again, we are looking for like minded individuals that are into Prepping and preparedness that are located in the York, Chester, Lancaster, Mecklenburg, and Union region or within 30-45 minutes drive of the area. If you are interested leave something about you in the comments or leave a way of contact and a group member WILL get in touch with you. Thank you for your time.

 

Jun 232015
 

About me: i am an Army Vet and have been collecting survivalist and prepper skills most my life. I am 34 yrs old. My biggest issue is i have not been able to buy land of my own yet. I am looking for active preppers around my area who would be interested in working together and setting up a network for training and to assist each other in becoming more self suffiecent.

Jun 222015
 

Hi,

Just looking for anyone in South Australia that is wanting to throw around ideas, talk about what’s going on in the world.

I find it hard to find like minded people who think it’s a good idea to hope for the best but plan for the worse.

Not looking to join a group, just talk and get and give ideas.

Hope I’m posting this in the right place.

Thanks.

Jun 202015
 

Hello all.

I woke up in 2011. Was (and still am) shocked by all that I see when I really started to look. And to Listen.

I am in the middle of 4 (FOUR!) reactor sites and really too close to cities :) So, I’d like to move.
I would be a great neighbor, for someone :)

I’m interested in starting or joining a prepper-education group around Exton, PA.

I am Not looking for a militia to join.

Just some folks, middle-age-ish who are like-minders; to figure out the best things to have in place for when the shtf.

NOTE: I am not interested in the offers to pay money to have a place to bug out too.

You know the ones.  All you need to pay is $25k and we’ll GUARANTEE you a place in the bunker/acreage/other safe sounding thing; blah, blah, blah.

However, I might want to start one in PA :)

Thanks

~Prep

 

 

 Posted by at 7:07 am
Jun 202015
 

I live in SW Idaho. I have 7 acres, good irrigation, a tractor, some fruit trees (8 peach, 3 apple, 2 cherry), and a 1 ac. garden
plot. I am 67 yrs old, retired, physically able. Can grow food, hunt and fish, and I am also a Marine combat vet. (Long ago). I am interested in making contact with an established group in
SW Idaho. Also, groups up in Sandpoint area please respond.

Please email me at: Quail6686 [at] yahoo [dot] com Thanks!

 Posted by at 6:32 am
Jun 202015
 

Hi my name is Rita and I am new to this site. I live in on WI/IL border.  I am looking for a group of like minded Christians. I’m feeling alone in this whole endeavor. I am middle age single and family and friends see everything as normal. I am planning on moving out of Beloit into small town living before the snow flies, and looking for a group of people that I can start collaborating with.

Jun 192015
 

Southwestern Oregon Preppers (SWOP) will be holding its monthly meeting at Noon on Saturday, June 27, 2015 at the Coos Bay Fire Department, 450 Elrod, Coos Bay, Oregon 97420.

The main topic is “Making Better Decisions”. Sometimes, we make decisions that we regret. The decisions you make when disaster strikes may result in life or death. Tools, tips, techniques and skills for making better decisions will be presented.

This is a free public meeting to get to know fellow local preppers in southwestern Oregon counties and to exchange information and ideas. It is important for individuals to understand that they will be “on their own” in the event of a disaster and not to depend on receiving outside help. Join Southwestern Oregon Preppers on Facebook and/or meetup.com.

 

 

 

Jun 172015
 

Looking to meet and greet with same on the Plateau. Family of 3 Squared away. Willing to put forth whatever labor and assistance that is necessary. We are employed fulltime and our job travels with us. Christians and American Patriots. Can pass all background checks…no drinking drugs…drama etc… Looking to live and work at BOL. Please respond if you have something to discuss..

SheepDog1976 ……Out

Jun 162015
 

Hello everyone, I’m a married 31 year old, with three kids and have been an active prepper for a few years now. My wife and I are second amendment active, and 2 of our kids are training in krav maga. We are from vancouver washington, but currently own 2.3 acres in klamath county for emergency purposes. We arnt religious but respect everyone’s background and beliefs. My wife is proficient with growing fruits and vegetables while I am constantly studio wilderness survival in and out of the field. We have worries about an emp man made or natural and economic collapse. We are looking for like minded people that may want to share interests.

 Posted by at 8:25 pm
Jun 142015
 

Hi, I’m looking for groups in northern Idaho or south east Oregon lower population areas. I’m 29, on my own , 2 year food supply,basic supplies,Berkey water filters, 6 years experience growing a large variety of perennials (nuts, fruits, vegetables).

Looking for someplace not downwind from a nuclear plant if the power goes down. I’m a quick learner, down to earth, minimalist,common sense, not very religious, love the outdoors. I need time to establish my own land but would like a backup plan if there isn’t enough time left. I understand no one can be 100% self-sufficient by themselves.

mc86776 [at] hushmail [dot] com

Jun 142015
 

My wife and I are novice preppers with food, water and arms, but need to learn more and are very serious about finding like minded people for strength in numbers. Please contact if you are experienced preppers with the patience for novices. Thanks!

Jun 132015
 

Greetings,

Preppers (wife & I) and another couple looking to connect with other married couples in the central VA area in order to network and add to the group. I have a few acres and a lot of skills. In process of turning my home into a sustainable and defensible bug-in location in a lightly populated area. Contact king-01 [at] hushmail [dot] com.

Jun 122015
 

Are you REALLY ready for the Event?

  • What if it happened next month?
  • Would it make more sense to affiliate with a group of like-minded folks who are organized and prepared for such an event because there is safety and skills in numbers?

The facts and your intuition about what is getting ready to happen can’t be denied.  We are heading for a major life-altering event.  Your logic is telling you something big is going to happen.

Then join a group that is serious about preparing for an event.  There is safety and skills in numbers. We have been preparing for several years to shelter our membership and sustain our existence for many years afterwards at a secluded and secure location with full-spectrum provisions for long-term survivability.

We are an organized multi-family prepper retreat located in central North Carolina.  Our membership comes from Virginia, North Carolina and South Carolina. We don’t live there–we just prepare it for the day we know we will have to live there. We are not sure what will take place or when but we know it will. It is not a matter of if…it is a matter of when.

The 50-acre retreat has a deep well with pristine water, a pond and a fast-flowing creek. Deer, wild turkey and rabbit are abundant. We raise livestock such as rabbits, chickens and ducks.  We have several gardens (raised beds and tilled ground).   We grow food for consumption and medicinal plants as well. We also have a fruit orchard and numerous fruit bushes.  As a back-up, we have been planting natural growing non-cultivated food sources such as tubers, blackberries, etc.  Our objective is to be self-sufficient when we have to occupy our retreat.  We have also constructed a greenhouse to cultivate vegetables, sprouts and seedlings and adding a larger greenhouse to allow longer growing seasons.

We have recently added numerous solar panels to the ones we had stored.  We have a dedicated team working on Energy to determine exact power needs.

It is our belief that there is safety in numbers and a wider range of skill sets as well. We feel it is critical to store and prepare together than risk an isolated effort that cannot be defended when social order collapses. We all value our families’ safety enough to collaborate in preparing for that event.

I am a Vietnam Vet who served with an infantry unit as part of five years in the US Army. I have also served as CEO of three successful companies in my career so I know how to organize people and projects.

We have organized a retreat community made up of hard-working and dedicated folks preparing for an event.  Many of our membership are former military.

The retreat includes a small medical clinic as our membership includes several doctors,  a RN and an EMT. We are prepared for many medical emergencies or situations.

In addition to the medial staff listed above, our members also include several electrical engineers, an auto mechanic, a teacher, a competition shooter/fisherman, a seamstress, contractor, a former SWAT member and trained aviation mechanic and assembler. We have formed teams to address security/weaponry, medical care, food production, food preparation, communications, construction and energy.  Each team has a Team Leader and organizational charter.

Our motto is: Plan…Prepare…Practice.   

Our three-person Leadership Team sets executive policies and provides operational day-to-day decisions.  Issues that involve long-term implications or significant allocation of resources are bought before the group for discussion and input.  We do not run our organization like a commune or home owners association —but more like a corporate or quasi-military organization.  If you are looking for a pure democracy with extended deliberations and a vote on everything while progress is measured at a snail’s pace… pass us by.  If you are looking for a group to join that you can maintain a passive involvement, store food with your “name on the list” for “when the balloon goes up”… we are not the group for you.  We are looking for team-oriented individuals that bring useful skills and positive “can do” attitudes to the table with committed families to actively participate in and further develop what we have achieved so far in the following areas:

  • Operational facilities and extensive sustainable survival provisions maintained in a high state of readiness with the services of a full-time caretaker and group projects conducted at regular meetings.
  • Personal and group training in sustainable living skills (gardening, livestock, construction, food preservation/preparation), operational security / defensive skills, and medical/TCCC (tactical combat casualty care) training.
  • Solid relationships between members based on trust, competence, and contributions to the group over an extended period of time. Everyone in the community contributes from their resources and skill sets to make us a stronger group.

We hold monthly Gatherings which are also Skills Development and Retreat Building Workshops one weekend every month. During a typical weekend we conduct numerous training sessions and defense simulations. Firearms and security training is part of every session and members are encouraged to seek out individual firearms training as well.  These workshops include working on developing the retreat as well as developing our skill sets. We have taken several of our members to other homesteading skill training programs in other parts of the state to improve homesteading skills. We have a 360+ page operations manual to support our members.

We also developed a separate 200-page Retreat Activation & Security Protocol that has been reviewed and critiqued by several retired military officers and several security systems experts. We have a 25-meter and 100-meter pistol and rifle range and provide training in basic handguns, rifle and shotgun use at every Gathering.  We have several trained instructors.  We also have an extensive CCTV camera system for surveillance with several monitoring stations. We take our security seriously.  After all, if you can’t defend it…it is not yours to keep.  Ours is defensible.

Additional training topics we have presented have included foot patrolling techniques, first aid and trauma medical care, compass reading and orienting, gardening, battery storage, food packaging, water purification, alternative energy devices, running & gunning, cheese sealing, EMP protection, herbs and homeopathy, essential oils, sanitation, candle making, operating earth moving equipment, solar energy, slaughtering and dressing of domestic livestock, and survival skills, etc.

We have accommodation cabins, RV spaces, a medical clinic, 2 laundry rooms, a well-house, a 3-room bath house with showers and laundry facilities, community center, provisions storage area, commercial kitchen and communications center/operations room. We have a large amount of stored water, solar energy, propane supply and wood burning as well. We have prepared for EMP with multiple precautions to include multi-layer nesting of all electronics within Faraday Cages.

We have installed a four-stage air filtration unit (with large bank of deep-cycle marine batteries) for our fallout shelter that can remove 99.99% of the impurities in the event of a NBC or fallout event. Every member has to have a functioning gas mask and fresh filter.  Our fallout shelter is self-contained and able to sustain the community members for weeks, if needed. We also have calibrated radiation monitoring equipment, dosimeters and hazmat suits for clean-up and outside monitoring.

To support our communications center, 4-5 of our members have Ham licenses.  Our communications center will monitor radio traffic and stay connected with a network of other ham operators when the event occurs. We also have our own internal switchboard system with hard-wired phone system.  As a precaution, we have duplicate equipment for everything.

The governance bodies are: an Ops Leader, Assistant Ops Leader, a Leadership Team and a Community Council (made of adult members).

Our members rent space (RV space or cabins) at $250/month to pay for on-site caretaker/security personnel and utilities.  We all share in the development of the community through work every monthly Gathering. We don’t occupy the retreat until an event has occurred. Our members can also use the property for R&R to enjoy hunting, fishing, relaxing as we are surrounded by a large area with plentiful game.  We do have a one-time membership fee that is non-refundable. We have one cabin available as well as a several RV spaces (RV has full range of sewer, water and power hook-ups).

We are looking for capable and willing folks to help with physical requirements of post-event such as energy (solar, etc.) patrolling, gardening, wood gathering, hunting, etc. We are also looking for additional skills to add to our mix.  No anti-government types or racists.  We are Constitutionalists and despite a major concern in how our government is run—we are pro-America.

Prospective members go through a vetting process that includes email interviews, telephone interviews, face-to-face interviews, and a background and criminal check.

Although we are secular, we are principally Christian but will consider all religions (or non-religious types).  We are not “Bible-thumpers” but have deep moral, spiritual and ethical beliefs.

We review our mission, vision and core values at every meeting and have a 12-page set of rules.

If you have been prepping for a while and want to affiliate with a like-minded group in North Carolina, then ask for an application.

The retreat is ready to be occupied by members at a moment’s notice. We keep the candle burning 24/7.  You could be one of those able to flee the perils of the decline of social order for the security of a small well-trained, organized, and prepared community.  How important is your family’s welfare and security? What are their lives worth to you?  Think about the advantages of a well-organized group when it comes to the safety and welfare of your loved ones when everything turns upside down. It is like owning an insurance policy you never want collected or that spare tire you keep in your trunk.

Don’t be caught in your house as the armed gangs are going door-to-door pillaging.    Don’t wait too late wishing that you had a secure and organized bug-out location to escape the dangerous world that awaits us.

We have been told by several TV production companies that have approached us for filming that we are one of the most organized groups they have come across.  Then why haven’t you seen us on TV?  It is simple…our OpSec and obscurity is far more important than ‘15 minutes of fame.’  We are preppers–not food hoarders or entertainers.

If your family’s security and safety is critical to you and you live in North Carolina, Virginia or South Carolina, contact us today. Contact me via email: sgtprepper2 (at) gmail (dot) com to request an application and list of further requirements.  We are serious—are you?

Jun 122015
 

can you imagine in just one hour your world changes?  Just off our coast something happens to cause the greatest tidal wave man has ever seen.  If you live any with 100 miles you’ll have to time all will be gone. If you live with 200 miles you’ll be on the run, The roads will be jammed, people fighting for the last bit of food and water on the shelves. Shortly the effect is felt across the entire nation.The word from very reliable sources say that 6,000 retail stores will be closing this year. Other top scientist warn of a 2.5 mile comet hitting the earth. Jade Helm is not in all those western states for nothing. This is no joke! I was there to see how things go down in a major disaster. When Katrina hit everyone who lived on the coast had their lives changed forever. Violence was everywhere, gunshots in the night warning of looters. That was Nothing, 911 was nothing compared to what is about to happen.

There is a group of people Christians from the southeast who have formed, “The Southeastern Christian Preppers Retreat”. It will be a place of safety in the mountains where you are invited to live in community. The land has river frontage, room for your own small survival cabin, hunting, fishing, secluded from the danger below.

Currently, we are working on a nuclear shelter for protection. We are only taking a small number of people for now. We need your help financially, and labor. in exchange you’ll have your own place of safety to bug out to or live year round. do your homework and see if I am telling you the truth about the coming days, and then join us to get this work done. truefaith (at) jesusanswers (dot) com

this is for everybody in Fl, Ga, SC, NC, Tenn, Ky and Va.  Please understand! it is worse than you think